These are the real deal and I have yet to see another setup with as devistating pattern. My son dropped a big tom this year at 68 yards (rangefinder verified twice) with the 20ga Ninjas (Browning Citori w/ 24" barrels, 555 choke, and Fastfire 3 on top). When we skinned it out, there were 3 pellets in the neck and 3 in the head. I patterned it up to 60 yards and still had 10 pellets in the skull/spine. At 50 yards I compared the 1 5/8 oz 8s, Ninja 8.5s, and 1 5/8 oz 9s with that setup. The patterns were very close to the same density. I also intend on comparing the patterns at 70 just because of what junior did.PS... Last year, my son dropped a huge tom at about 40 yards using the 2 3/4" 1 3/8 oz 9s and I took a jake at 31 yards with the same setup. The jake didn't move after the shot (head was mush).Needless to say, I won't buy anything else.I tried to put the 60 yard pattern pic in the review, but wasn't able to.